Community Maps Killed Halo: Reach

Yeah, I actually agree a bit. It gets tiring seeing the same Forge world maps over and over. I just kinda wanted to see new map packs is all. Don't get me wrong, the others were great and the Anniversary pack was sploosh-tastic, but when I play with my friend who does not have these packs, the community maps just wear me down.

I do agree with most of what you said, however, my biggest issue with the game is how different it is compared to the trilogy and ODST. It doesn't feel like Halo anymore, it feels more like generic space shooter.

Also, I disagree with your statement about community maps being worse than Bungie maps, but only sort of. Taking a look at the Halo 3 community maps that made it into MM rotation, specifically within MLG, were far superior of most of Bungie's maps, or at least I think they are. In addition to that, MLG took the original maps and changed spawns, weapons, and *some* items, to improve upon what Bungie had started with (and let's be honest, Bungie tends to crowd maps with power weapons, just look at default Guardian).

Lastly, I don't mind that every Forge World maps looks the same, since, in my opinion, aesthetics should be the lowest priority on a map. Working to create a good flow and a balanced weapon/ability set is much, much more important. However, I'd argue that, ever though Reach has more Forge tools, the overall map quality is vastly worse than that of Halo 3's simple Forge system. And I believe that it is the expanded tool set that is the problem. In Halo 3, if you wanted to make a really awesome map, it took a lot of skill and patience (aesthetic was not important), so fewer people were making maps on a consistent basis. Whereas Reach, if you want to make an awesome map, you have to come up with a *mostly* unique design, since your map will get lost in the sea of maps if it doesn't look nice. Aesthetics are what sell maps in Reach, not the gameplay.

I agree on all your points. Yes, Reach is so far the worst of them all. I think the biggest problem with the Community maps is that they out number the Bungie made maps. Usually when voting 2 out of 3 maps are usually Forgeworld maps. Most are a drag, I find myself griping when one gets voted. I would like to see certain gametypes that have only or vast majority of Community (They use to have a game type like that right?). Then the rest only Bungie made maps(Including Forgeworld Bungie maps). As for Forging. I agree on all you points, But is only Forge mode not Map Maker. I would like to see them turn forge into a from scratch map maker. It would be awesome if they add a map creator like the one in Farcary (2?)!

Originally Posted by The Unirocerous

I do agree with most of what you said, however, my biggest issue with the game is how different it is compared to the trilogy and ODST. It doesn't feel like Halo anymore, it feels more like generic space shooter.

Also, I disagree with your statement about community maps being worse than Bungie maps, but only sort of. Taking a look at the Halo 3 community maps that made it into MM rotation, specifically within MLG, were far superior of most of Bungie's maps, or at least I think they are. In addition to that, MLG took the original maps and changed spawns, weapons, and *some* items, to improve upon what Bungie had started with (and let's be honest, Bungie tends to crowd maps with power weapons, just look at default Guardian).

Lastly, I don't mind that every Forge World maps looks the same, since, in my opinion, aesthetics should be the lowest priority on a map. Working to create a good flow and a balanced weapon/ability set is much, much more important. However, I'd argue that, ever though Reach has more Forge tools, the overall map quality is vastly worse than that of Halo 3's simple Forge system. And I believe that it is the expanded tool set that is the problem. In Halo 3, if you wanted to make a really awesome map, it took a lot of skill and patience (aesthetic was not important), so fewer people were making maps on a consistent basis. Whereas Reach, if you want to make an awesome map, you have to come up with a *mostly* unique design, since your map will get lost in the sea of maps if it doesn't look nice. Aesthetics are what sell maps in Reach, not the gameplay.

Halo 3 community maps were better, I think a fitting description of them would be "art from adversity" right? The Halo 3 forge was weak so it forced people to get interesting and creative. However you have to remember that, at least initially, the Bungie employees who approved Halo 3 community maps are the same people who approved Reach community maps. Plus the people who made maps for Halo 3 probably kept making them in Reach. So if we have the same community, the same moderators, why do the maps not feel the same? One of two options either A: Bungie became a lot more relaxed about their map approval policies because they wanted to round out Reach's multiplayer experience with a sufficient amount of maps with the least amount of work, or B: The community got drastically worse at creating maps overnight. I am inclined to lean towards A, I think Bungie phoned in everything to do with Reach and that includes the multiplayer maps they "approved" with only minimal tweaks/testing.

I agree, gameplay is definitely the most important thing to consider when talking about maps, thats why I mentioned some forge maps that rise above it (Asylum or Uncaged, for example). Those maps play great and because of that I don't mind that they are all blue and grey and boring. However you cannot count out aesthetics entirely, creating an interesting and unique play space should be important and can add that extra "wow" factor to a map. That is where Bungie/343/Certain Affinity maps really shine, they play great and they have the ability to make interesting and unique environments. For example look at the remake of Hang 'em High, with the huge tornado thing in the background (I believe it is a forerunner portal that has been open, but I might be wrong). The map would play exactly the same if that wasnt there, but having it in the background makes the it at least 10x more awesome. Striking a balance between good gameplay and unique visual design is the, in my opinion, the true mark of a great map.

Originally Posted by Ghosty

I agree on all your points. Yes, Reach is so far the worst of them all. I think the biggest problem with the Community maps is that they out number the Bungie made maps. Usually when voting 2 out of 3 maps are usually Forgeworld maps. Most are a drag, I find myself griping when one gets voted. I would like to see certain gametypes that have only or vast majority of Community (They use to have a game type like that right?). Then the rest only Bungie made maps(Including Forgeworld Bungie maps). As for Forging. I agree on all you points, But is only Forge mode not Map Maker. I would like to see them turn forge into a from scratch map maker. It would be awesome if they add a map creator like the one in Farcary (2?)!

Wouldn't it be great if Halo 4 included a "Map Profile" option, kind of like the Psych Profile in Reach? Allowing you to choose which maps you like and do not like. Then that profile could be used to match you up with similar players that want to play the same maps as you? Imagine being able to turn off the maps you do not like and never having to play them again?

Also it would be cool if they allowed a full on terrain builder like farcry, but I feel like that is a huge step who knows it would be great!

Agreed. Great map + great aesthetics = incredible map. However, I was merely commenting on the community maps, not the Bungie made ones (which have much more ability to have better visuals). Nonetheless, you're right.

Who ever said that the Halo 3 community maps are where its at is absolutely correct.

Also, I spent real $$$$ on map packs, but it seems since I don't own the Anniversary Pack I never get to play the others. This makes me sad and feel a little ripped off.

This sentence marks the end to my contribution to the ranting going on around here.

Im sorry, but you CAN NOT speak for Bungie and Microsoft, nor the opinion of others. Not only that, you are stereotyping 343i being capable of creating FOUR ForgeWorlds and letting you create global scenery? Are you kidding me? YOU are the ones that are going to ruin Halo 4 by over-hyping it, and expecting a new company filled with amateur employees who can't even create an app or function without a huge exploit or glitches.

I have to disagree with this. So many were unimpressed by the default maps available upon release & the lack of good DLC maps has only increased the use of Forged maps in MM and Customs. There are entire communities built around this like ForgeHub, and site I work for BigTeamBattle.net. The lack of good competitive maps available in the default maps has lead to massive upsurge in quality maps. Are they all perfect and amazing? Of course not, but they are by and large better than what we were given out of the box.

I would suggest reposting this on 343's official forums to get the most attention. The community manager is pretty active and reads a lot of forum posts. Lots of good ideas get picked up on there and yours regarding multiple forge worlds is something ive wanted for a while. Also it would be nice to see the immediate halo community's opinion on all this. You have some fair points and while 4 forge worlds is a bit over reaching more than 1 would be nice.

I couldn't agree with you anymore. Bravo. I agree with everything you said actually.

Originally Posted by Nowise10

Im sorry, but you CAN NOT speak for Bungie and Microsoft, nor the opinion of others. Not only that, you are stereotyping 343i being capable of creating FOUR ForgeWorlds and letting you create global scenery? Are you kidding me? YOU are the ones that are going to ruin Halo 4 by over-hyping it, and expecting a new company filled with amateur employees who can't even create an app or function without a huge exploit or glitches.

don't really know how to respond to this, I never said I was speaking for Bungie or Microsoft just offering my opinion on how things went down. As far as stereotyping 343i? Not sure if you are using the word correctly there but this article is more about the ideas themselves than the feasibility of implementing them. Regardless of if 343 can do it or not (for the record I think they could, not this late in the dev but that's not the point) it was more of a wish list for an ideal forge than an actual projection of what I think will happen with Halo 4. This is not a hype thread for Halo 4 in any way, just one man's musings about his ideal forge experience.

Originally Posted by TsengMao

I have to disagree with this. So many were unimpressed by the default maps available upon release & the lack of good DLC maps has only increased the use of Forged maps in MM and Customs. There are entire communities built around this like ForgeHub, and site I work for BigTeamBattle.net. The lack of good competitive maps available in the default maps has lead to massive upsurge in quality maps. Are they all perfect and amazing? Of course not, but they are by and large better than what we were given out of the box.

Like I said, it is all subjective and there are some good forge maps out there for sure. However I still maintain that the majority of community maps that have been included in matchmaking are sub par when compared to the maps made by Bungie/Certain Affinity. That isn't saying that no good maps are out there, but the ones currently in matchmaking are not of the same calibre as they were in Halo 3.

Halo Reach was meh because:
1. Bungie still didn't let me drive a Pelican (that Easter egg didn't count it kind of sucked)
2. No massive battles like in Halo 3 (Covenant)
3. I missed the flood
4. Multiplayer felt like Halo 3 (but worse)
5. No Arbiter
6. I knew how the campaign was going to end
7. Number 5 means no Keith David
8. The campaign was lacklustre and boring
9. The characters lacked depth
10. Only good maps are Sword Base and Powerhouse
11. No mastur cheef
12. Firefight *yawn
13. No added game modes (CE had campaign, 2 had multiplayer, 3 had forge and theatre, ODST had firefight)
14. Bungie forgot how to make a game fun
15. No original gameplay ideas
16. If I go back and have more fun in 1,2 and 3 doesn't that make it a bad game?

Nostalgia is a killjoy.

Here is my opinion, but from one playlist and that is Grifball. Since Grifball was and is a community run gametype it just makes sense that the community's maps get submitted and they do! Since i come from the Grifballhub Community and run my own Grifball League I love the community made maps. I mean the stuff they come up with is shicking and very well thought out and Well designed.... Now my one gametype might get into ActionSack in February. Now I think community maps are great for community gametypes such as Action Sack, MLG, & Grifball, but im not to happy about the BTB Maps and such made by the community, but you know Bungie and 343 are community loving developers and it gets more people excited about the game so its in my opinion a great thing! Cause without the community where would Halo be?

Sincerely, Vetteking95 Owner/Founder/Commisioner of the IGL
igl.moonfruit.com

Originally Posted by Nowise10

Im sorry, but you CAN NOT speak for Bungie and Microsoft, nor the opinion of others. Not only that, you are stereotyping 343i being capable of creating FOUR ForgeWorlds and letting you create global scenery? Are you kidding me? YOU are the ones that are going to ruin Halo 4 by over-hyping it, and expecting a new company filled with amateur employees who can't even create an app or function without a huge exploit or glitches.

Umm... Sounds like you're severely under-hyping Halo 4. 343i is not a company filled with amateurs; they are ex-Microsoft and Bungie employees who wanted to stay around to continue Halo, not a group of people randomly plucked from the street. Besides, what was suggested here was not: "THEY HAEV 2 DO THIS OR THE GAEM WILL SUCK11!!1!one!" It was some ideas as what what could really bring the Forge up to an incredible level. Not to mention that other games have so of the ideas here (ie: terrain customization). And finally, this was all an opinion. In no place did the OP say they were or intended to speak for Bungie, Microsoft, or 343i.

Originally Posted by The Unirocerous

Umm... Sounds like you're severely under-hyping Halo 4. 343i is not a company filled with amateurs; they are ex-Microsoft and Bungie employees who wanted to stay around to continue Halo, not a group of people randomly plucked from the street. Besides, what was suggested here was not: "THEY HAEV 2 DO THIS OR THE GAEM WILL SUCK11!!1!one!" It was some ideas as what what could really bring the Forge up to an incredible level. Not to mention that other games have so of the ideas here (ie: terrain customization). And finally, this was all an opinion. In no place did the OP say they were or intended to speak for Bungie, Microsoft, or 343i.

You see, in actual reality, only around 5(?) former Bungie employees work there, out of around an average studio filled of people, not to mention 5 people don't make a game and decide every choice.

Not to mention HaloWayPoint on the Xbox 360 is either very glitchy and likes to kick you back to the main menu every 2 minutes, or you have to have one of the best connection around to get it to work. Not to mention the HaloWayPoint iSO is extremely slow, likes to crash a lot, and Atlas not working properly. Not to mention me, and countless others, can't even turn in Custom Challenges due to a glitch they won't even mention or fix since Custom Challenges came out in November. Not to mention the exploit they created with Custom Challenges, that allowed thousands of people to get 1,500,000 Cr in 3 hours for Halo:Reach. Very amateur on there part. Not to mention there sub-par website layout, and how glitchy there website is. They aren't showing anything good at all for what they are supposedly capable of.

And to the OP, you are literally saying Bungie never wanted to Halo:Reach, and it was very rushed because campaign maps and multiplayer maps were combined within each other, and that its the worst Halo game by far. Please, go find me where Bungie said they never wanted to do Halo:Reach, or the evidence that leads to the fact just because parts of multiplayer were in the campaign meant the game has been rushed, because in my eyes, making multiplayer maps work with campaign maps seems ALOT harder then created two unique sections.

Originally Posted by Nowise10

You see, in actual reality, only around 5(?) former Bungie employees work there, out of around an average studio filled of people, not to mention 5 people don't make a game and decide every choice.

Not to mention HaloWayPoint on the Xbox 360 is either very glitchy and likes to kick you back to the main menu every 2 minutes, or you have to have one of the best connection around to get it to work. Not to mention the HaloWayPoint iSO is extremely slow, likes to crash a lot, and Atlas not working properly. Not to mention me, and countless others, can't even turn in Custom Challenges due to a glitch they won't even mention or fix since Custom Challenges came out in November. Not to mention the exploit they created with Custom Challenges, that allowed thousands of people to get 1,500,000 Cr in 3 hours for Halo:Reach. Very amateur on there part. Not to mention there sub-par website layout, and how glitchy there website is. They aren't showing anything good at all for what they are supposedly capable of.

And to the OP, you are literally saying Bungie never wanted to Halo:Reach, and it was very rushed because campaign maps and multiplayer maps were combined within each other, and that its the worst Halo game by far. Please, go find me where Bungie said they never wanted to do Halo:Reach, or the evidence that leads to the fact just because parts of multiplayer were in the campaign meant the game has been rushed, because in my eyes, making multiplayer maps work with campaign maps seems ALOT harder then created two unique sections.

In actual reality, you seem to just want to bash 343i in this thread, and that is not really what this is about at all. This whole article is my opinion of what happened during the development of Halo: Reach, I never said this was fact or how it went down this is just the way I see the situation. I pointed out my reasons for writing what I did because I see them as logical conclusions to draw from my observations of what happened during the development of Reach. However this is not a researched article, if it was I would have quotes, and sources, and a bunch of other stuff to back up my claims.

To address your one point that does relate to what I wrote, here is a short mathematical break down on why combining matchmaking maps and campaign maps saves time and money(PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THIS MY OPINION THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT REAL THEY ARE JUST PROVING A POINT THAT IS, IN ACTUAL REALITY, HOW THINGS WORK ON ANY DIGITAL PROJECT BE IT BUILDING A GAME OR BUILDING A WEBSITE OR ANYTHING ELSE WHERE YOU CAN REUSE A SEVERAL OBJECTS/ENVIRONMENTS/LINES OF CODE MULTIPLE TIMES):

Z = the time it takes to design one environment(i.e. a multiplayer map) in a digital space, for arguments sake lets say designing, building, and testing an environment takes 500 hours
Y = the time it takes to build one level in the reach campaign, so in this case lets say it takes 2,500 hours

So if we take these made up numbers this is what we get for the amount of time it takes to make a game:

(Y x 10) + (Z x 10) = 30,000 hours to make the game with 10 unique multiplayer maps

Now, lets take the same equation, but this time use the multiplayer maps within the campaign, therefore all the time spent on them can be subtracted from the time it takes to develop sections of campaign levels:

(Y x 10) - (Z x 10) = 20,000

This is NOT my opinion this is math, my numbers are made up but the principle is sound, it is a fact that this method saves the developer time and money and this is what Bungie did. If you think that it is more challenging from a conceptual standpoint to add these maps into the campaign that may be so, however that is taken care of in the planning phases and it may add a few hours onto that phase the bulk of the work still takes place in the actual building of the environments.

---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Vetteking95

Here is my opinion, but from one playlist and that is Grifball. Since Grifball was and is a community run gametype it just makes sense that the community's maps get submitted and they do! Since i come from the Grifballhub Community and run my own Grifball League I love the community made maps. I mean the stuff they come up with is shicking and very well thought out and Well designed.... Now my one gametype might get into ActionSack in February. Now I think community maps are great for community gametypes such as Action Sack, MLG, & Grifball, but im not to happy about the BTB Maps and such made by the community, but you know Bungie and 343 are community loving developers and it gets more people excited about the game so its in my opinion a great thing! Cause without the community where would Halo be?

Sincerely, Vetteking95 Owner/Founder/Commisioner of the IGL
igl.moonfruit.com

None of this applies to grifball, grifball is not Halo and I did not even think about it while writing this article because I rarely play it.

As far as the community point goes, I would say that the community was around before Forge maps and that I am not against the idea of community maps, I loved community maps in Halo 3, I just think that this games community maps are sub par.

If you took every custom map out of matchmaking, the game would not get any better or any worse. The maps did not "ruin " anything.

I love Bungie to death for what they have given me over the past 10 years and they are an amazing company...but in my opinion, Reach could have been SOOO much better. Not only in terms of gameplay, but also in canon as well. There are holes in the story which have yet to be fully explained beyond the typical "Just because that's the way we wanted it." Do not get me wrong...I love Reach...it still feels like Halo and it still has a great story. One thing that really irritates me, is when people say Reach sucks simply because it isn't EXACTLY like Halo 3 or Halo 2. The multiplayer is fun if you stop comparing it to previous games! Reach is it's own game, with it's own mechanics, and it's own art style...it is NOT a Halo 3 sequel or add-on...so PLEASE, stop whining because you can't get used to a new game.

As far as the maps go...yeah, I agree that Bungie did take the easy way out by using campaign sections as multiplayer maps. I agree that there were not enough of said maps at launch. However...when it comes to Forge...Bungie really dropped the ball. There are SOOO many games out these days that ship with 2 or more discs. Forge should have been not only it's own separate disc, but it should have been A LOT more advanced. A complex terrain and map editor would make Forge absolutely outstanding. If anyone here has ever played Far Cry 2, you should know what I mean when I say that it CAN be done on the console. I seriously hope 343 answers the community's cries for an editor such as this...

All in all...community maps did not "kill" Reach. Reach was never fully alive to begin with.

Originally Posted by Drax 122

If you took every custom map out of matchmaking, the game would not get any better or any worse. The maps did not "ruin " anything.

I love Bungie to death for what they have given me over the past 10 years and they are an amazing company...but in my opinion, Reach could have been SOOO much better. Not only in terms of gameplay, but also in canon as well. There are holes in the story which have yet to be fully explained beyond the typical "Just because that's the way we wanted it." Do not get me wrong...I love Reach...it still feels like Halo and it still has a great story. One thing that really irritates me, is when people say Reach sucks simply because it isn't EXACTLY like Halo 3 or Halo 2. The multiplayer is fun if you stop comparing it to previous games! Reach is it's own game, with it's own mechanics, and it's own art style...it is NOT a Halo 3 sequel or add-on...so PLEASE, stop whining because you can't get used to a new game.

As far as the maps go...yeah, I agree that Bungie did take the easy way out by using campaign sections as multiplayer maps. I agree that there were not enough of said maps at launch. However...when it comes to Forge...Bungie really dropped the ball. There are SOOO many games out these days that ship with 2 or more discs. Forge should have been not only it's own separate disc, but it should have been A LOT more advanced. A complex terrain and map editor would make Forge absolutely outstanding. If anyone here has ever played Far Cry 2, you should know what I mean when I say that it CAN be done on the console. I seriously hope 343 answers the community's cries for an editor such as this...

All in all...community maps did not "kill" Reach. Reach was never fully alive to begin with.

Well I would argue that removing the majority of the community maps would make it more fun because then you wouldn't have to play them as much, but again that argument is based on the fact that I do not like most of the community maps.

I think its fair to compare Reach to the original Trilogy and ODST, it exists in the same universe and was made by the same developer. If you can't compare one thing to another then how do we know what we like and what we do not like? I would agree with your point if someone said "Reach sucked, especially compared to the first time I went sky diving, sky diving had much better graphics and improved gameplay" because the two have nothing in common. However comparing Reach to Halo 3 is as natural as comparing the apple you ate last week to the one you had with your lunch today. Having said all that I like Reach a lot, love the multiplayer and I dig a lot of the maps, just not as much as I liked the other games, and I think that is a fair statement to make. I mean going back to my original post, if you had 5 girls in front of you Drax, and I told you to pick which one was the least attractive, how would you do this without comparing the appearance of those girls?

Glad you agree with my Forge ideas though, I think I will rework this article and include some of my points in the later post so I can put it up on the 343 message boards as well. Also I agree with you that Custom Maps are not the disease, just one of the symptoms, however that still doesn't make them any better.

reworked the article and posted it on 343:

http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_post...lo--Reach.aspx